Normal subgroups of nonstandard symmetric and alternating groups

Let be a nonstandard model of Peano Arithmetic with domain M and let be nonstandard. We study the symmetric and alternating groups S _n and A _n of permutations of the set internal to , and classify all their normal subgroups, identifying many externally defined such normal subgroups in the process. We provide evidence that A _n and S _n are not split extensions by these normal subgroups, by showing that any such complement if it exists, cannot be a limit of definable sets. We conclude by identifying an -valued metric on and (where B _S , B _A are the maximal normal subgroups of S _n and A _n identified earlier) making these groups into topological groups, and by showing that if is -saturated then and are complete with respect to this metric.